Dude: Relax. (UPDATED)

UPDATE:  Has it occured to anyone that, while Driscoll considers a visual representation of God, the Father, as a graven image, he's actually providing one himself?

He's calling The Shack out for this sin, even as he's flanked by his own graphic in the YouTube video, representing the Trinity.  Is one of the rings supposed to represent God, the Father?

I think that's obvious.  Yes.  And God the Father is not a ring. 

Heresy, anyone?  Am I missing something here?

I, for one, hope people cut Mark some slack for this.  I'm MUCH more interested in how he lives the love of Christ, than how doctrinally correct he is.  Much more.  But that's me. 

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Mark Driscoll, is a pastor-feller who's probably a totally awesome guy, etc. etc., has now decided a book called The Shack is heretical.  Mark is a guy who finds heresy not infrequently, so, you know, big yawn. 

But it's apparent that the book he's blasting?  Uh...he didn't totally like...read it.  Or something.

He says it promotes goddess worship, which is, as Mark is wont to say, a load of crap.  Read the book, all of it, and see what you think. 

Mark mocks the whole idea that God would meet Mack, the central character, in a shack.  Absurd, huh?  You see, God doesn't meet people in shacks!

He doesn't mention that's the site where Mack's daughter was murdered, and the point of the meeting is so Mack can wrestle with God and his anger, and his questions, and try to heal. 

I kinda liked the book.  I was a little creeped out, since I have a daughter.   

Driscoll finds heresy all over the place, at least in the outline he read, but you can read the book and decide for yourself.  Mark would rather you didn't, but I think both you, and the truth, can handle it. 

Point is:  IT'S A NOVEL, FOLKS.  Yes, it's supposed to be surprising.  Yes.  It's a fanciful idea, one with a twist, that makes you think about humanity and God.  Some call that sort of thing "art." 

Is this novel too novel?  Maybe.  I don't know.  But heresy?

Mark says the novel gives us a graven image, by defining graven image in a way that would indict his own church, for pictures depicting Jesus.  All righty. 

No, Mark, The Shack didn't actually happen.  And yes, we know that. 

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It REALLY ticks Mark off that Christians are reading this garbage.  He doesn't mention it, but it must really frost him, too, that Eugene Peterson says the book could be a Pilgrim's Progress for this generation.  Peterson is embracing heresy, too.  Take a number, EuPete.

I'm fear Driscoll's going to catch wind of this "Narnia" thing.  Right on, man:  Jesus was NOT a lion.  That's a fact.  The Bible is VIVIDLY clear on that.  Was Jesus killed by a "White Witch"?  No, no he wasn't. 

And beavers don't talk.  We need to guard our doctrine, folks.   

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Oh, P.S.:  The book does have God saying that human institutions, based on power relationships, are not His way, and not His intention for the church.  That may not have gone over well, either.

Comments

[Jimmy_C]

I happened to meet the author of this heretical document a few weeks ago. He seemed like a loving man. He seemed like an humble man. He seemed like a caring man. He seemed like a man who runs around with Jesus.

Thank you so much for setting me straight!! I now remember; the men who follow Jesus aren't loving, caring and humble...they should be loving UFC and calling everyone heretics, and working out in the gym and make sure folks have perfect theology and they should never tell stories to illustrate God and Jesus and all that jazz.

And who is this Eugene Peterson dude...isn't he some old pastor with a congregation of less than 1000 members. I mean really...we should be careful of who we let give us advice. We should ONLY take words of wisdom from men and woman who have done BIG BIG things in the Kingdom, because God is a BIG BIG God.

[Bob]

Yeah, when I saw Peterson's comments on "Pilgrim's Progress," I thought "what's Driscoll going on about? Pilgrim's Progress is full of imagery like that."

And I realize that.

[Chad Welch]

Jesus (God the son) came to earth as a man. So we are allowed to make graven images of "the son" because he did it first. Pictures, lions, antelope, whatever. And "the spirit" came as a dove so he is open game as well, but God "the father," well he is off limits.

As Mark says, you can't represent "the father" as an old man because he doesn't sin so he doesn't grow old. Of corse, Jesus aged, so I don't know what that means. And then there is Genesis where God walks in the garden, but that's probably not "the father."

Anyway, I'm just glad I have all this doctrine protection and graven image stuff to spend my time on otherwise I might have to go out and help people in shacks.

[From Brant: Okay, well, then Driscoll stands guilty.

Behind him, pictured in the video, is a visual representation of the trinity.

Is one of those rings supposed to represent God, the Father? (Yes)

So he's visually representing God, the Father.

Mark Driscoll. Heretic.]

[andrew thomas]

"EuPete" - I like that...

I used to read about Driscoll and think he seemed like an interesting guy ("Mark the Cussing Pastor"). The more I hear about him, the more he sounds like the guy in the town square pegging bibles at passers-by and yelling his good news through a PA with blown speakers.

I shudder to think of what might happen if someone were to give him a copy of Pagan Christianity...

[M.E.]

That does it! I just got a coupon from Border's and I'm gonna buy that book! Or at least read it.

Driscoll may be right about the Emergents, but it sounds like he's going off the deep end. Condemning books based on mere hearsay.....???? What's next? Burning banned books on the mound of Wrigley Field?

[From Brant: In fairness, he *may* have read it. He just seems to have skimmed it. I do recommend reading it, though my friends liked it a lot more than I did. It got too fanciful for me, and, like I say, the initial narrative about the loss of his daughter just hit too close to home. I didn't want to think about that.]

[Becky]

I LOVED the book. I've read it twice and actually loved it even more the second time.

I can see how as a parent it would be hard to read (heck - it was hard for me to read and I'm single).

His rant about goddess worship makes it clear he didn't read it. Young explains in the story why he represents God as a woman. And by way, God does not remain a woman all the through the book.

Young says in the intro to the book that it's fiction. Jesus used parables all the time to illustrate truth. Driscoll's rant could easily be applied to Jesus' "heretical" teaching too.

[Chris]

I'm wondering what Mark (along with many others) would think about a book (that you can actually just go and read as a PDF) called "So You Don't Want To Go To Church Anymore"... especially since it's a bit critical on a few things....

yeah it's funny because when I go The Shack via the Amazon.com link what do I see in the "Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought" but this book :)

Did I mention this book you can just download as a PDF?

[chris, happily consuming in Kentucky]

Driscoll may really go off on this one guy I was reading the other day. Get this: he said that the Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed! How ridiculous! He also said other obviously heretical things like God is a farmer, and the Gospel is a seed, thrown on the ground! He is verbally THROWING THE GOSPEL ON THE GROUND! We should not take this lying down; somebody should crucify that guy!

Anybody up for it?

[becky]

LOVED the way he illustrated the trinity....

[Terri]

This book has been driving a lot of discussion in my circles. We are doing it in our Book Club. Unfortunately, I had heard Mark Driscoll (and others I respect) had issues with it before I read it and so had a somewhat critical spirit going in. I love Mark's teaching and preaching. Yes, he has some intensity issues (lol), but God has really used him in my life to rekindle my passion for The Bible. His Youtube clip on The Shack makes some good points, but I agree was a bit over the top. What is scary to me about this book is how many people say "It changed their lives", etc. Being a recovering fundamendalist of sorts, my "uh oh" feelings get activated around reactions like that to a book. Not really looking forward to our Book Club next month when we discuss this, because I seem to be the only one that didn't "love" it. It just didn't grab me deeply--guess I am too literal. The Hobbit and the Narnia books were too difficult for my brain, too. Not enough imagination, perhaps. Love this blog and the way it challenges and convicts.

[Shauna]

My reaction to the book was meh, despite all the rave reviews from a lot of people. Peterson's comparison of The Shack to The Pilgrim's Progress was laughable IMHO. I did have trouble with some of the theological implications made in the story, though I'm fully aware that it's just a novel and have allowed for creative license. It would be nice to see more balanced reactions to and reviews of the book instead of only "This is the Best. Book. Ever. and it has changed my life!" or "This is utter heresy!"

[Samuel Jones]

This is, of course, the first time a fanciful and inaccurate portrayal of God appeared in popular media. . . so we should all boycott, right?

Driscoll does tend to put his foot in his mouth, he'll admit that. I'm also starting to worry he's defaulting too much to an aggressively defensive posture, which could be really bad, but hopefully some good brothers (like his pals CJ Mahaney and John Piper) will give him a kick in the pants and straighten him out.

Be careful Andrew, I think our attitude shouldn't be: "Dude, Mark Driscoll is bad!" but as Brant said, "Dude, Mark, Relax."

[Brian]

Yeah, the daughter part wigged me out a little too. I have two girls and am just a little paranoid about stuff like that.

But I thought on the whole the book was pretty good. And who knows if Young actually believes God would appear as he does in the book? It's a literary device, for crying out loud. Mack even asks God(the Father) why he would appear like that and the answer is pretty decent.

Heresy? Goddess worship? I don't think so.

[Chris Ridgeway]

just registering your blog-cred. Nicely done.

And now a double-take: Brant Hansen? I know I now sound awkward and all, but I was passed the link to your post from friends who know I like to track Driscoll Heresy. But I just realized we've met - lots of years ago. I'm an old friend of Stacey Krejci's - Champaign - and went on fulltime staff with Illini Life/GCM (where I've been the last seven years).

Anyway, nice to land on your blog. :)

ps - I've got some sweet quotes of Mark throwing the heretic word a number of other people on my blog. Not that this is supposed to be a sport, but just sayin'.

[From Brant: Hey Chris! Cool to hear from you. Man, do I miss Stacey and Megan! Hope Wayne's doing well, too. Very cool guy. Honored to have you read my blog -- can't wait to check yours out.]

[Bob Sacamento]

Is "EuPete" like the "original Pete" or the "source of Pete" or something like that?

I watched Mark D.'s talk. Dang! It strikes me as more of the tin-eared, ham-fisted "analysis" of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings we have gotten from some folks over the past few years.

But on the other hand, I have developed a presumption against *anything* "Christian" sold in book store these days, particularly anything that's popular. I am predicting that anyone who calls this the Pilgrim's Progress for this generation will be saying in ten years, "What the heck was I thinking?" "Pilgrims Progress"???? Once again, Dang!

Oh well. I'll see for myself ... someday ... maybe ... or maybe not.

[Beth]

Hey Brant,
I was actually in attendance at Mars Hill during one of Mark's rants on the book. We're not attending there, nor am I a huge fan of Mark, and in fact, I'd never heard of the book before he mentioned it.

I say this with a little trepidation, because I can't see the Youtube clip right now and don't know if it's the same sermon I attended. But... he honestly didn't say anything about the location of the book (i.e. the shack).

He did have a great deal to say about picturing God as a female (whatever, Driscoll's a little too gung-ho for my taste on the gender thing, and that's a sizeable chunk of why we haven't joined his church- not that I necessarily disagree with him, but I feel like he places way, way, way too much emphasis on it).

But (and again, this is coming from not being able to see the Youtube clip)... his ranting about the book had nothing to do with the location of it, at least during the sermon I attended. And he did have some decently good points about the book- he was using it in a sermon on the Trinity when I was there, and I think that it is pretty important to have a correct understanding of the Trinity. So don't get too cranky about Driscoll- he's trying to do the best he can, just like the rest of us (even if he isn't my cup of tea).

[Seaton]

"Dude: relax." is the best advice I've heard in a looong time.

[Rainer]

I read the book. I liked it. Some of it was a bit difficult to read as we have three daughters... For this reason, my wife has yet to read the book.

Was it the best book ever? No. But I liked it - a lot. Calling it heretical just shows that some people don't have enough creative thought processes to wrap their head around some interesting ways of the author trying to make a point.

As Brant said - relax!

[M.E.]

Well, Brant (and fellow Kamp Krusty readers) I read part of "The Shack" at Border's and, yes, I did buy it. (Those comfy leather chairs in Border's will be the death of my wallet someday.) I now can see why Driscoll went off his nut condemning the book and I'm sure my Calvinist friends will/would freak out at the thought of Our Father and The Holy Spirit being presented in the feminine. I must admit I was startled at first too, but then again, God is NOT a human (except through Jesus) and thus the Trinity can take any form they so desire.

Brant, I can definitely see that this book would be a very tough read for any father/mother of daughters, particularly daughters of a certain age. I don't have children of my own, (unless you count my cyber-children)and that part isn't easy for me either. But Young's book definitely isn't/wasn't meant for comfortable reading on a day at the beach. Suffice it to say, that if "The Shack" doesn't prompt the reader to do some serious thinking about the real nature of truth, I'd wonder if they even had a brain.

[From Brant: Definitely.

Not to spoil, but God the Father also presents himself as a man, AFTER Mack gets over his issues with his earthly father.

It's all a bit fanciful, and it's all quite easily understood to be fiction. I hope you enjoy it. I quit midway through until friends told me to keep going. Too much sadness.]

[Nathan Bubna]

I think i liked the book. It'd be easier to figure out if i liked it if i knew what it was. Haven't read anything like it. Not sure i'd recommend it to just anyone, but i can think of more than a few people i wish would read it. It was very interesting. Everything is life changing to some degree, so i guess i could give it that moniker. I too have a young daughter, that part was really heart-wrenching for me to read.

Was it heretical? Yeah. Duh. Of course it is, just not very. I think pretty much all books outside the Bible are at least a little heretical. How could they not be? Heck, even most Bible translations are a probably a little heretical here and there.

People make such a big weird deal out of the word "heresy" as if it's always some great evil. Most of the time its harmless. Heck, i'd go so far as to say that a little heresy is good for the soul. :) At least, if you're trying to figure God out, it is, because that means you're trying. No heresy means no trying and that's not good. Definitely bad to not try and understand the big Dude. Less bad is trying and not realizing that you'll understand Him. Worst is thinking you understand Him. You might know Him, but you'll never understand Him. That's a good thing. It'd be bad if He wasn't to big for us to understand. I think that'd make eternity really boring. But hey, maybe i'm wrong. Maybe we will fully understand Him someday. I'm probably a little heretical on this. But that's good, remember? :)

I love you all. Mark Driscoll, the Shack, heretics, even accordion players. Dig it!

[Ditto from Brant. Nicely put.]

[tim]

Brant,
When you wrote: "Mark mocks the whole idea that God would meet Mack, the central character, in a shack. Absurd, huh? You see, God doesn't meet people in shacks!" I could almost feel a boldly leading leader of leaders riff coming on (so there I was, creating the universe like only a winner could....).

[Da Bears Fan]

Original link to the video was removed by the user, but here is a new one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK65Jfny70Y

Hey Brant, would you touch that link up a little bit for me?

[albert]

bro. wow. now don't get me wrong, but I could see mark being upset if it was the "love shack" - that little old place where we can get together.

[Amanda]

LOL, thanks for the post. I personally love The Shack, as it really introduced to me the reality of having a relationship with the Father, Son and Spirit who love me so much. What could be better than that?

I thought I'd share with you something a friend of mine named Dena said in relation to The Shack being "heresy." It made me laugh, so I thought you might enjoy it.

"I honestly don't get the uproar about how God is 'presented' in 'The Shack.'

I see that God chose to present Himself as a burning bush to Moses... but no one seems to be having a hissy-fit about it, and no one seems to really think that God is really vegetation. :P"

[Doug]

Brant,

My pastor has a blog and I referred him to your post since he is a big fan of the book. He read your post and expounded upon some of it on his blog. He does take issue with one aspect of your point but is not critical.

I hope you (and others) can head over there and check it out, and weigh in on the discussion. I think you both raise good points (naturally, since it's my friend and my pastor)

Here's the link:

http://binginabar.typepad.com/so_a_presbyterian_walks_i/2008/04/right-thinking.html