We "Quit Going to Church" a Year Ago

It's been a year since I posted "We Quit Going to Church".  People fairly ask, "Well, what's the alternative?  You can't follow Christ without the church."  And, of course, I've never considered doing that.

It's just that "going to church" is incoherent, I said.  You can read about it here.

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"T" made a great point in his comment on the Barna book, noting that some might think I want to destroy the sweater (of church) by holding this thread while you walk away.  He didn't put it just like that.  But people wonder, understandly, "Okay -- but now what?"

I can't answer that for you.  But T's suggestion of merely asking, "What does God want His people to be doing?" is a great one.  We start there.  Not, in my opinion, with the power of tradition, whether personal or writ large. 

This said, I write the below hoping that you don't see it as prescriptive.  The first thing people want is a how-to, and I can't give it to you.  But we gave up on "going to church", and found the church to be more exciting, more difficult, and -- ironically -- far more attractive than anything we'd experienced before.  Many have asked, "So just what is it you do now?"  I try to answer, in brief, below.

By the way:  Friends, if you "go to church", one of those event-hosting, didactic sermon-centric, or attractional models, God bless you.  Even as I loooooooong for a body of Christ that is free of the trappings I critique, I'm fully aware that there are many in "typical" churches who dwarf my maturity.

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We started getting together with a couple other families, at least twice a week.  They'd been meeting for some time, in different forms.  We ate dinner together on, say, Wednesday, and we had a time devoted to praying and singing and listening and discussing on Sunday afternoon, followed by some more eating.

Another friend joined here, another family-just-met there, and now there's fifty-plus.  Our Sunday thing grew so large, it made it daunting for everyone to be involved.  We've birthed a couple other gathering opportunities in other homes, including ours.  We also still get together for a big meal/party late Sunday afternoon.

And we stay in touch via a Yahoo group, plus many informal get-togethers and help-each-others.

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There is no master plan, and no Giant Vision.  We do not have 501c3 status, though there's nothing wrong with that, and we don't take up a collection, except when there's a need, and there have been several.

We shy away from, "Here's a big project of program I'd like us all to do together..." and instead concentrate on, "How can help each person use his or her gifts in Christ, in their own contexts?"

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There are several leaders, to varying degrees.  If any of them go on an ego trip, they will be rebuked...after everyone stops laughing.  One of our leaders, Mike, says leaders shouldn't be viewed glamorously, as the "eyes" or the "head" of the church.  Instead, the spleen or small intestine come to mind:  Absolutely not glamorous.  Often unseen.  And completely, without question, unarguably, necessary.

Our gatherings are heavy on laughing.  And -- get this -- teaching.  No one "planned" this, but our back-porch conversations are invariably challenging and provocative.  When you hang out and do things with Kingdom people, you will learn.  You can't avoid it.

It's another odd thing this past year:  I've sat through no sermons.  I've learned more about Jesus, and more about the Bible, oddly enough, than ever before.  I'm thinking in new ways;  ways that have me seeing the forest, rather than mere trees.  I know many in our group would second that.

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Money is a challenge.  Not because we have to "tithe", but because we don't.  Because our group's overhead is $0.00, our money now becomes a relational issue -- wtih God.  I have to ask, "Lord, what do you want with us?  Send people across our path who need what we have..."   

We are now able to sponsor more kids through Compassion -- something that's come across our path in a personal way -- and we can walk around with Target or Publix gift cards, for whomever crosses our path in need.  Giving is alive.

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People are a challenge.  With no paid staff, we all see ourselves as pastors, to varying extents.  And this can be draining.  The drag about getting to know people, and knowing they can't turn to some professional in your midst, is that the onus is on us (ooh:  "onus" is "on" "us" -- that's so true) to follow-up. 

The gatherings are not smooth.  People say things out of turn, not everyone naturally socially connects, and there are rough transitions.  It's challenging, as someone who knows how to plan an emotional, get-you-right-there "worship service", to just let...things...be.  This doesn't mean to refuse to correct error -- I'm not talking about that.  It's about allowing silence, letting kids ask questions that have nothing to do with what we were just talking about, knowing when to be done, and knowing when to stop everything and say, "Please pray for me." 

Like I say, not smooth.

We get together for campouts and poker games and cookouts and airgun fights and fishing and white elephant exchanges and moving parties and sometimes some of us have to live with each other, under one roof.  The neighbors think we're a little loud, and we are, but we're trying to be nice.

It's a big mess.  A year ago, a smaller mess.  Like I say, no plan, no Visionary.

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I've been wondering, for my personal life:  Is it possible to just go one day at a time, as cliche as it sounds, and try to be faithful with what God puts in front of you, that day? Would He, in turn, be faithful to hold the future?  Or should I get anxious, take matters into my own hands, and worry about five, ten years hence?

I think I know the answer, hard as it is to live.  The past several months, I've wondered the same thing about us, as a people, here in Jupiter.  Can we just try to be faithful with who the Lord brings before us, including our neighbors, each day, and see what happens?  Or do we need a master plan?

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Not everyone's going to be comfy with this.  I'm not even comfy with it.  It's hard.  And fun.  But hard.

If you have any questions, let me know in the comments, and I'll try to answer what I can.

Comments

[Jeannie]

I think what you are doing requires far more commitment. It would be totally torturous at times but so satisfying and "worth it" I'm sure. To not be hung up on routine and presentation would be both freeing and uncomfortable when nothing exactly came up...But I don't think God is uncomfortable with people waiting on him so maybe that gets easier.

I am both jealous and relieved that I don't do this.

[Zach Nielsen]

Brant,

Sounds really exciting to me. Keep the reports coming!

One thought:

There seems to me to be a sort of emphasis in the NT on preaching and teaching coming from those in authority. Our authority to teach comes from Jesus having "all authority in heaven and on earth" (Matt 28). He gave this authority to teach HIS message to his disciples and the implication was that these disciples where the authoritative ones who would then go and start the church of Jesus. So it seems right from the start there is a structure of authority ordained by Jesus for his church. Church history affirms this in the formation of the canon, etc. Only those books that had direction connection to apostleship were accepted.

The epistles also show us this as well as Paul assumes that he has authority over the churches to teach them how things should be. This is clearly seen in all his letters, etc.

Elders are to govern the church as they are to guard the gospel, etc.

Most to say on authority for teaching, but enough for now...

My question would be, is there any sort of teaching in your church that could be seen as authoritative? Not in the sense of super Christian isolated pastor guy. I know you hate that concept as I do as well. But is it a free for all in terms of the teaching at your church (or gathering, or whatever you call it)? Do you agree that there seems to be a structure of authority for teaching that is present in the NT? How is this supposed to play out in church? More specifically, how does it play out in your church?

Just my initial thought/question. I think there is real merit to what you are doing and I think many of us can learn a lot from it.

[Jonathan Brink]

Nicely done Brant.

[MrPages]

Hi Brant. Thanks for sharing. You're an inspiration to those of us who are just about there.

We're at the jumping point of "stop going to church" too, but I have a practical question. (You know, when there are huge issues at stake, it always comes down to the silly nitpicks that everyone focuses on).

How/where do you meet with 50+ people including kids?

Is there a house in the group that is large enough? Do you beg/borrow/rent a space?

I'm really reluctant to move into a position where we have "a place" to meet that isn't just a home because I really want to make sure we stay focused on the people as the church rather than having the distraction of "this is where we meet so this is our church". However, many of the interested people have large families so even getting 3 families together stresses any of our homes as meeting places. This leaves no room for outreach or visitors or anything.

Majoring in minors, I know, but it's stressing us. Any advice?

[Daniel]

I think the most important thing you said in this entire post is this one part:

"Can we just try to be faithful with who the Lord brings before us, including our neighbors, each day, and see what happens? Or do we need a master plan?"

I noticed one of the comments on the Barna book mentioning something about "beginning with the end in mind". I think that is true for business. But the fact the people think it is also true for church, is a glaring example of the problems we face today.

It's VERY hard to go "one day at a time". But it also feels a lot more true to Jesus and the heart of God that I see revealed in the bible.

I'd be interested in hearing more as you head down this road.

[Daniel]

oops. I gave wrong contact info on that last comment. feel free to moderate this out if it's superfluous.

[Heather]

Well, all that sounds exactly like church to me! Messy, conflicting, encouraging, educational, stretching, friendly, painful, exciting - it's all church because Jesus is in the middle of it.

In fact, this post is probably the best description of real church I have ever seen. No, it's not comfy, but it's real, it's not visionary but it's real. It's not perfect, but it's real - and God's blessing is very obviously upon it. It seems that's the most important thing.

[ryan b]

That's crazy. It really is. And it's pretty much what my family and some of our friends have been wishing he had for the past several years. I'm gonna need some time to think this through.

[Brant]

Mr. Pages -- I'm sure others could offer advice on this. We crammed into a home with a biggish "great room". Nothing fancy. We were crammed.

Moving to more spaces wasn't really about physical space, though. It was more prompted by feeling we had too many people to allow everyone to be involved. A lot of people are hesitant in a group that size. The people who aren't daunted can dominate pretty easily.

Similarly, many of us didn't want to just find a bigger place for the week-to-week gatherings. Sure, for a larger gathering, like our New Year's party coming up, we rent out a neighborhood clubhouse next door to where one of our families lives.

Zach -- Very respectfully, I actually don't agree with your premise, that authority structures are an emphasis of the N.T. I think we can read them into the N.T., but to say it's an emphasis -- I don't think so.

After the apostles planted churches, they eventually came back and appointed elders. (So the churches existed without elders for awhile, for one thing.)

We have Catholics saying there's a very clear authority structure -- Peter was named head of the church. But a whole lot of other people reading the N.T. don't take it that way. It's just not obvious. (Check out Acts 15, where there's a BIG issue being settled, and normal people are allowed in the meeting, and Peter doesn't seem at ALL like he's heading things up.)

I think there's a lot of disagreement precisely because the N.T. is *not* terribly specific about the authority issue.

I also think "authority" has to be re-interpreted. I think Jesus did a lot of that re-interpreting.

I also don't think that "authoritative teaching", versus the kind of teaching that happens in our church, is an emphasis in the N.T.

I'm being way too cursory with this, but I need to go watch T.V. with my wife...sorry about that...

[John L]

Beautiful.

(Zach.. Viola addresses in-depth the very issues you bring up. There's another book I recently read which gets into far greater detail than Barna on the structure of NT-era meetings and leadership - "House Church and Mission: The Importance of Household Structures in Early Christianity" by Roger Gehring. highly recommended.)

[Mike P]

Could not have said it better if I tried. I will testify in my experience that I have learned more in the last three months with this group than in any small group study or sermon in years as a follower of Jesus. I just feel like my eyes have been opened to how it can be, (not to say that the institutional church is wrong), its just that this is real, the growth is real, the people are real and Jesus is real! Fo Real

Yes I meant Fo real.

[Shawn Bashor]

Would you mind paraphrasing this and re-posting it?

[Zach Nielsen]

Brant,

Thanks for the response. I would still love to hear how the teaching goes down at your church and why you think that is supported Biblically.

I agree that the Biblical definition of authority is very different than the world's (servant, John 13)

Let me cite a few texts:

Matt 28 - Great Commission - Seems to me that authority is here being given to the apostles to "go and teach" as these first apostles were the first church planters. Do you think they they didn't believe that they had some kind of special authority (I can support this more if you want)? Seems like church history testifies that most people thought they did have special authority since they hung with Jesus for three straight years.

Don't you think Paul felt that he had special teaching authority for the churches? 2 Cor. 10 seems to show this quite clearly. I would love to hear you interact with that text if you think I am wrong.

2 Cor 13:10 - "For this reason I write these things while I am away from you, that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority that the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down."

Paul exhorts Titus - Titus 2:15 - Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

3 John 1:9 - I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority.

1 Tim 5:17 - Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

I just think it's hard to make a case Biblically (I would love to hear one) for some kind of a teaching free for all. "Anyone who has a word, come and bring it!" I assume that is not how you run things, but you didn't answer that one specifically.

Please interact with these texts if you would like because they definitely seems to point to special authority within the church for those who teach. Simply the fact that we have actual letters written to churches by apostles seems to show this. They assume they had authority to write these letters and their authority was shown to exist as they were passed around the community.

Thoughts?

[Patch]

I'm blessed to be part of this amazing and extremely disorganized group. How did I come about being part of this? Was it a cool sermon series or an amazing drama presentation one Sunday morning?

Nope! When I first moved to Jupiter, I pulled up in a 26' truck packed to the gills. Brant and a few of his "friends" showed up and had that truck empty in less than 2 hours!

That was the start. People loving people and doing what was probably uncomfortable or inconvenient for some of them. But there was a need and they stepped up. Strange how this didn't take a committee to put together, or fliers in the bulletin. Just a quick email saying "hey, I have a friend moving to town, if anyone can help, we'd appreciate it".

Pretty cool! Gods people...

[Patch]

Brant, there's a lot of people who admire what you're doing. Many of us want to emulate what you have going on. We're envious of what's happening in your home. So, please, I beg of you, PLEASE.... Tell us what you're watching!

[Barbara]

I have a question....are there any single people in your group? I ask because singles often get left out of gatherings like this (at least that's the case in my area) and that's just plain sad. Singles want to be a part of the big picture not just included in "singles groups" because frankly those are so lame most of the time! They have a Singles Service at the mega church down the street from me - its like ok, I'll go there in hopes of hooking up, umm, no thanks...that's embarrassingly obvious and to me, insulting.

Singles are people too! We want to hang around couples and kids and be included and use our gifts.

So if there aren't any single peopel (which by the way come in all ages) ask yourself why not. If there ARE - then just delete this comment :) Seriously, being single is being part of a minority, and we are often overlooked. I personally am anti-social so I don't mind being "left out" but I hear from singles who are getting bitter about it.

[Barbara]

PS I hope I didn't sound negative in my comment. I think its soooooooo cool, how you are doing church, I long to be part of something like what you described (I really am not anti social but I also love people)

[Christopher]

Brant, you have described a gathering of Christians who meet regularly here, but at least from what I have read, you simply have not described the Biblical understanding of a local church. No authoritative teaching ("sermons" is one word for such teaching) from appointed elders? No formal church membership (that is, as indicated from 1 Corintians 5)? No practice for formal exclusion from the church, after following the Biblically mandated processes (again, 1 Cor. 5)? Then, there is simply no church, at least not in the Biblical understanding of the word. An informal gathering of Christians without Biblically authoritative teaching does not make a local church. I know that you have a "different" understanding of what authoritative teaching means, but what you have described here simply doesn't contain some of the Biblical ingredients for a local church. We can't just "do church," or even "be church," without regard for how the Bible describes a church. Yes, far too many local churches have gotten caught up in programs and other trappings that distract from the Gospel and the "living out" of the Gospel. The solution is not to leave the formal church wholesale, but to either work within the local church where you are for a more holistically Biblical understanding of church practice, or to find a local church which is already growing into this understanding.

[Bob]

I like this very much, but know it's not for everyone. It certainly seems to remove the "spectators" who are content to call "church" a building they go to once a week to fulfill an obligation.

A question that does come to mind is "when exactly do you reach a point where some kind of authoritative structure is necessary?" You yourself said the apostles deemed it necessary to appoint elders at a point. They also found it necessary to appoint people to take care of the basic needs of others (Acts 6). Why? Because the number of believers was growing so much.

So what I'm thinking, under this model, there will come a time when a tighter organization with some kind of role definition will be needed. Would you then split the group? If you needed to define roles as the early church did, who decides? And having decided, who would be in charge of the various responsibilities?

I love this stuff -- I find myself sitting in "church" so often and wondering "why are we doing this?" Just trying to walk through the process now. Thanks for the post.

[cuyler]

i feel retarded. i would have been the first comment but i missed that oppurtunity by bringing the blog up and thinkig, "i will read this later."

i don't have any questions. this is mostly what happened to me. well, really, a group of us were part of a college age ministry at an official church. that church cut our funding, but we didn't want to quit meeting. we've been meeting in our "pastor's" house for about a year now. it's the best church experience of my life. came at the right time too. i hadn't gone to church for almost a year and felt incredibly liberated... for a long time. then a peculiar and heavy depression came over me and i knew that it was because of the exact same reason i had experienced such elation: i quit going to church.

but, yeah. at any rate, it's one of those things where i feel like God had slowly been preparing, or at least seeding the doubts of my mind, for what was to come. i absolutely feel this is they way church is meant to be lived and anything else, no matter how potent or in your face relevant, is to some extent a poor and often watered down imitation.

mazel tov.

[[rhymes with kerouac]]

Thanks for this. It's inspiring.

[shaun]

Wow!
Sounds like you guys have really stepped out off of the cliff. I don't mean it in a bad way at all, it sounds really risky and kind of well, wild.
What was the one thing that made you finally stop going to church? Was it an event? How long were you kicking around the idea before you actually stopped and did you already have this group sort of together before you stopped?
Just wondering because I had basically stopped for a few reasons and my family just found another church to attend. But , this is not your typical church and this body actually seems to be moving in the same direction (albeit slowly).

I just want to say also that I think it is really great that you are doing this. Isn't God just amazing ? He seems to use the things we would never expect and show us ways we would never go on our own. Man I just get so frustrated and inspired by the things God keeps doing in my life. Stay strong Bro!
Peace Be With You

[Seth Ward]

Very interesting and thanks for sharing this journey with us. Again, sounds like a blast. Makes me hungry just thinking about it.

Just a side note from the king of non-sequiturs...

I think it is poetic justice, or maybe just poetic… that what Luther started became a self-perpetuating phenom. In fact, I wonder if it if Protestantism (speaking as a protestant still) can exist without perpetual reform.

By its very nature the Reformers must reform, and if by chance the whole of Christianity follows the model or direction or whatever of the aforementioned book, I imagine that there will spring forth a host of reformers to bring the church back from wherever that road eventually leads them.

In another 50 years or so there will be another 95, 97 or 98 thesis tacked upon the home-church/gathering of Christians/potluck biblestudy/true-tithers. (That description sounds snarky but it is not intended to. Just can't figure out what to call it, which seems to be the point. I much prefer it to the current mega-church model. But mostly with in terms of where the tithe goes, and the chowing. As I told you before, we've started tithing differently and it has completely changed our perspective and us.)

Overall, would you say that your current direction (?) is similar to the Church started by Watchman Nee in China?

About your last question, I'd say stick to Matthew 6:23- and you'll be alright. If you don't you guys will be buying chandeliers and jumbotrons before you know it.

I think I quote those scriptures more and more every day. The whole secret to abundant life and Kingdom living is right there; I just don't want to believe it. It's just to good to be true.

[Michelle Van Loon]

Another book that explores post-institutional-church Christianity: Brian Saunders' Life After Church (IVP). Great read, echoing many of the same sentiments you do, Brant. (But without the pictures of stuffed spleens, which gives your blog a definite edge.)

Thank you for talking about this, and wrestling with what it means to be the church.

[Brant]

Zach -- I really recommend Viola/Barna's book, because they take up the scriptures you have listed. I recommend this because it saves me a lot of additional typing. I do appreciate your points, and I've argued them in the past, to be honest. (I don't mean that to imply I've matured out of believing that. I could be wrong NOW, of course...)

The early churches did not begin with elders. Quite the opposite. They were recognized later by Paul, for example. I would say our gathering is in that early state.

Is there a big emphasis on the office of elder in the N.T.? There are three instances of elders being publicly recognized: At Ephesus and Galatia, and Titus in instructed about them for Crete.

I think there's a real big emphasis on the Kingdom of God, and it's corollary "Jesus is Lord", in the N.T. But I also grew up hearing more about Correct Church Polity than about that stuff.

There are no references to elders brought in from outside a church. They emerge from within an existing fellowship.

There is no biblical office of "pastor". There are people given pastoral gifts. There is no basis, in scripture, for a sacred profession in the church to be recognized as the authority.

There IS, again, authoritative teaching in our church. You don't have to do it lecture-style, folks. In fact, it's arguably *more* authoritative, when the teaching comes from someone you know and respect, directed to you, in actual conversation.

(Wondering what's more authoritative to a man: A guy teaching, lecture-style, to a big group of men, women, and children, because he went to Bible College, or two or three men, sitting with you in your living room, saying, "Here's what needs to happen...")

There is nothing more biblical about the first option. Nothing.

What's more, we all have something the early churches didn't have: our very own Bibles.

You write: "I just think it's hard to make a case Biblically (I would love to hear one) for some kind of a teaching free for all. 'Anyone who has a word, come and bring it!'"

Not hard. It's in Paul's very explicit instructions for the Corinthians. He says "When you come together, everyone has a hymn, a word of instruction..." in I Cor 14.

We don't have a "free for all" in the least. Quite the opposite: If someone says something that's opposed to scripture, it's a sure thing someone will pipe up. This is in stark contrast to the churches I grew up in, where the instructor will go unchallenged, because it's lecture-format. I watch TV preachers, in front of thousands, misuse scriptures without a peep from the crowd. That's a free-for-all, though it meets someone's idea of the authority test.

Yes, the apostles were given authority. Your reference to Diotrephes may not bolster the idea of a person being considered the authoritative teacher in a church, though. He loved being a big-shot in his church, and tried to take over. Sadly, in my life, this rings familiar.

Fact is, some people are gifted with leadership skills. People will follow them, for good or ill. In the church, these people must practice servanthood. The net effect will be the ethos of the entire group is changed, and made to look more like Christ. It's not about ordination (which isn't biblical, either.)

If you're worried about heresy, worry about large gatherings where one guy can smell some power and attention, and you can't rebut him in public. That picture may meet the "authority" test, though.

Barbara -- There are single people in our group. They comment that they feel like they have a family now, which is the coolest thing. In our gatherings, frankly, I don't think there's much emphasis on who's married and who's not.

Christopher -- By your own definition, the earliest churches weren't churches, either. They didn't instantly have appointed elders.

Many institutional church folks will disagree with you about the membership thing.

To say we have no authoritative teaching, again, is inaccurate. Where are the sermons in the N.T.? The gathered believers, listening to a lecture, week after week, from the authority? I don't ask this to be snarky, I mean it. Where is it?

This isn't to say it's *wrong*, but just to point out, using the common standard. For me, "not in the Bible" doesn't equal "wrong". My Xbox isn't in there, and neither is Sunday School, or paid local church staff.

Definitely, we don't have a revoke-your-membership-status ceremony. Could someone be removed from the fellowship? Absolutely.

In a way, I'm sorry we don't meet your criteria, and I hope that, with maturity, we'll agree on all this (perhaps it is me who must do the maturing -- that's *always* possible.) But your criteria will be instructive for those who wonder why I even talk about this stuff.