On Preaching and Stuff

Commenter Dave makes a fair statement, in the thread on Awesome Manliness and preaching:

"You seem kind of down on pulpit preaching."

Have at me:  I think I am kinda down on it.  Even the word "pulpit" weirds me out.  Seriously.  Maybe that's not fair.  Just being honest.  "Pulpit".  Bleh.  "Pulpit."  Ew.  "Pulpit."

But -- and it sounds silly to the ear, but I'll type it, anyway --  I don't think there's anything "wrong" with pulpit-preaching.

Oh, I do think there's something wrong with fostering expert culture, ego trips, lack of equality in the church, stopping people from interacting when ostensibly "gathering", enjoying small (and big) time celebrity,  idolizing never-ending knowledge-accrual, limiting those who can contribute, promoting a seeming singular "leader", ear-tickling, confusion about the original public nature of "preaching" in the N.T., and, especially, feigned religiosity.

I do think there's something wrong with those things, but those don't have to come along with pulpit-preaching.  They often do, sure (seen it my whole life) but they don't have to, and some humble leaders demonstrate this.

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Full disclosure:  My dad is a minister.  My very cool brother (he's a minister, too, and I used to be one) and I grew up around this stuff.

Does this color my impressions of both the necessity and efficacy of week-in, week-out, in-the-church-building-pulpit-preaching to the same people by the same guy? 

Oh, heck yeah.

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My family and I went to an all-black church for awhile, before we moved here from Illinois.  It rocked.  The preacher was incredible, man.  Funny!  Entertaining!  Grounded!  Insightful!  Well-educated!  Mature!  Awesome!  ...and he talked for two and a half hours!

-- I snuck out every week.  After a half-hour, I'd run past the frowning, gloved ushers and across the street to "Strawberry Fields", where I could eat granola and read the NYTimes Book Review.  I confess, I can't handle it.  I'm sorry.  He was great.

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"Preaching" in the N.T. is largely a public phenomenon, so far as I can tell. 

Preaching in the synagogues --- to Jews;  preaching to then non-believers at Pentecost, preaching outside, gettin' busted for preaching, interacting with people all the while, answering questions, responding. 

I confess to being a bit confused by the elastic use of the word, but that may be my own lack of biblical knowledge.  Maybe preaching was, in the N.T., what it generally is, now:  Non-interactive speaking to large groups of the same believers in "church buildings" on a weekly basis.

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As a media-type person, I get invited to "preach" sometimes, too.  Occasionally, I don't offend everybody, and get asked back. 

One recent sermon topic at a big church:  "Why Sermons are Overrated".  That pastor -- figure this -- asked me back.

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Truth is, I don't learn best, I'm not reminded best, by listening to large-group oration.  I learn best when I can interact, when I can listen to others interacting, or when I can hit "pause" during a podcast, or when I can go back and re-read that last thing Jesus said that shocked everybody and made me laugh. 

Even better:  I learn when I'm doing stuff with people, when I'm doing one of those 40-or-so "one-another's" in the N.T. that you can't possibly do in a typical worship service.

That's just me.  Your mileage may vary.  But here's what's weird:  Between the two of us, your preacher's probably more like me than you.  Except he's manlier than me.  But that's not the point.

He probably won't say, "You should sit in a large group and have someone preach to you on a weekly basis."  He probably won't -- at least shouldn't -- say that because he likely doesn't sit in a large group and have someone preach to him on a weekly basis.  He listens to podcasts, reads books, interacts with people, does stuff.

And by golly, that's okay by me.

Comments

[Joel]

Thanks for this post. As a preacher I am humbled, convicted, and encouraged by what you've written. As much as I want it to be (due to my enormous ego), preaching is not the end all be all that many Christians and pastors desire. In my decade of pastoral ministry I've found the pulpit to be fairly ineffective at transforming lives. In my experience genuine life change happens more often when I'm up close and personal.

I think that some pastors hide in sermons. (I know I did until I got a real job. Just a joke .. sort of.) They spend hours per week crafting sermons and feel all spiritual about their work. It's much easier to then thunder from the pulpit than do the hard work of reproof, rebuke and exhortion face to face.

Some Christians hide in worship services. The truth is that many do not wish to really hear from God through other believers. It's much easier to fool ourselves into thinking that we're living righteous lives if we make preaching and adherance to the right doctrine the main point. Those things are important, but if they're not transforming us into little Christs they're worthless.

I hate it when you bust me and my profession/calling, but I love it too. Keep it coming.

For what it's worth ... Your humor is fantastic, but when you use it to deliver certain truths I don't receive it very well. When I read your previous post on the subject it just made me angry (plus you insulted the extremely manly John Piper). In this post, I caught your heart on the matter and it influenced rather than irritated me.

[Patch]

Great point! If sitting and being preached at each week is good for us spiritually, why don't more pastors do it? I love it!

[Jim]

Yes, and there are some people who enjoy/are edified by/respond to the movement of the sprit through pulpit preaching. Especially when it's combined with all that other stuff that I'll file under 'community' only because that's a convenient word for it.

On the other hand, Paul sometimes preached for hours. Eventually someone cut off his head.

So there's that.

[Jim]

"movement of the sprit."

I wonder what that is?

[Jonathan Brink]

I think it is an interesting twist of insight that the preachers don't have to do what they predominantly ask us to do. Maybe that's part of the problem.

[Wolfgang Amadeus M.]

Ja- and that is the point- when its your passion, you do it daily- because you love doing it. If you are a spiritual leader, and its your passion, you do everything everyday so that you can "lead" your sheep on Sunday. If its a church that your sheep go to daily- then more the better.

Christianity should be interactive- it was in our Lords day- thats part of what made it so different- and drew people to it.

Today- its not the same.

I think the best model it the Sermon on the Mount, and also the on going discussions that Our Lord had with his disciples -generally on a daily basis.

There are many instances in the NT where those examples are showen.

Wolfgang

[angie]

I'm a first time poster, but have been reading over the last few weeks. I don't always agree, but you do make me think and I apperciate that so much!
But, I just read what explains everything-You're a PK. Now it all makes sense!

[Michelle Van Loon]

Yes! Amen!!!! Preach it!!!

[Michelle Van Loon]

Err. Uh. As in - I agree with you.

[truevyne]

To me preaching is something like going to the gym and watching someone work out every week. As the preacher's gets "buff", everyone watches, but we are not given the opportunity to try for ourselves. Surreal, eh?

[Brant]

Thanks for the input. So interesting to get your reactions.

Joel -- I appreciate what you're saying about the humor and persuasion and stuff. I don't fault you a bit for this.

It's kinda weird, this "blogging", because I don't have to sell anything. No subscriptions, no ads, nothing, so the duty to avoid alienating (for lack of a better term) isn't quite there.

I mean, I don't want to just pick fights, or offend people for sport. But when I started blogging, I just did it because I love writing. And I want to laugh while I'm writing. I'm so happy and honored when others read the blog, and particularly when they add their wisdom, but my goal with this is still the same -- just write stuff.

Anyway, your response is really impressive, for what it's worth. I'm very thankful for your graceful attitude. Same thing with Angie, above, and others who disagree at times but still show patience and kindness.

True, no one's forcing anyone to read this blog, but it's still impressive when people disagree (or agree) so thoughtfully.

[becky]

yeah remember poor Eutychus?

[T]

Joel, thanks for the real interaction.

I want to restate here a modified version of a previous comment (under my homeschool Diva alias):

Brant, awesome central point: the very "preaching" as practiced by most of the Church week after week tends more to emasculate, rather than equip for ministry, most everyone in attendance.

Pastors, leaders, we need to think about this. Pastors who are fathers, how do you teach your son or daughter to do anything? Do you do it for them? Yes, at least a time or two at first. But what then? You supervise them doing it as soon as they are able, in whatever limited way they can do it. Before you know it, they are teaching you some things! They may become even better than you at it! Praise God! I ask pastors honestly, how often does this happen, how often do we even have this as a serious goal, in ministry? Do we want to actually train our people to do what we do, with the likely result that many will do what we love better than we do, or in important ways we won't or can't? Jesus did!--he said we will do what he's been doing, and even greater things! Which is what agape hopes for and pursues in others. Do we want ever growing preaching (and teaching, and praying, etc.) teams, or one man shows every week? Why? On what basis biblically? Our goals and structures are perfectly designed to get the results we now have.

You'd think from our structures (both physical and non) that what we want or expect, above all, are sitters. Attenders. Spectators. Fans. Hearers of the word. I honestly think that Jesus would have raised funds and built buildings that hold crowds comfortably had he thought it would help get himself multiplied maturely within people, because he was out to do exactly that.

"How I am in the pains of childbirth until Christ is fully formed within you." If that is the motivation behind the way we currently do "preaching", it is a seriously ill-chosen means. If pastors are seriously hoping to teach people how to preach, or work correctly with the bible, or listen and talk to God, or whatever else they do that's worth replicating, they would draw more people into the action they are doing--as Jesus did himself. But our practices are not geared toward producing confident "actors". We create old children dependent on their pastors for many tasks--still needing milk when they should be teaching others. We would correct any parent for rearing children the way we try to produce maturity in the church. We're not geared toward producing men (or women) of God, not equals (or superiors!) in ministry, but "laity"--it even sounds passive and inactive.

In all sincerity, the whole of our practices and structures need to be evaluated in light of the goal (similar to a parent's) of producing mature people who can do what we've been doing, and even greater things.

[Justin Powell]

good stuff brant...I was once a more manly man and loved to 'bring it' in the church service, but now I see that I was mostly preaching to myself and still had a fear of saying the same things to people in a 1 on 1 conversation. I think it's because I truly didn't love them as much as could and found safety droppin 'bombs from the stage . A few years down the road now, I I more agree w/ what you've said...and think that dialog teaching in a group setting is more fun, challenging, and, most importantly sticks with us better...and we have the accountability of having anything that we say called out on the spot! And I believe that true manly spirituality is being able to hav e a hard conversation with an individual because we care and because Jesus has changed our lives...not because we have a 30 min spot on a Sunday.

And your writing is hilarious....I find myself trying to retell your posts to people sometimes and I just ruin it...keep it up

[Amy]

Ha, it's funny b/c my attention span for a sermon is about three minutes. It's not a trait I particularly like about myself, but sorry! It's the truth. I try hard to listen but it's not always possible. This also goes for sermons on tape. I even have to concentrate hard with enormously entertaining speakers like Beth Moore. However, I think that for others, the sermon is something they really look forward to and enjoy. But I look forward to and enjoy Bible study or small group/cell meetings a million times more. It's not like the pastor/leader didn't also prepare for those meetings, it's just, like you said more interactive. And I am often better able to figure out how to take the truth of what we're talking about and apply it to my life. And if it greatly impacts someone else, we are better able to stop immediately and pray for them or help them understand their questions before they forget them.
Um, I'm a PK, too, so I've always felt guilty about not being able to listen to sermons. But there you have it.
Also, I just wanted to say that I think you're a fantastic writer, I'm glad you decided to do a blog and that you let us read it and disagree with you sometimes. :)

[Joel]

Brant, I understand and appreciate that you write the blog for the love of writing. You may not understand how much influence you have, however. I am at least a few years older than you and your blog has profoundly changed the way I think about church. What brings you joy impacts people. Like it or not, your readers take your views to heart. I hope that doesn't freak you out. Your writing ability and humor hooks us, but your wisdom and humility change us.

[Mark Whittinghill]

Hi Brant! It's been a long time, but you have my email now, and you're it.

As for super long sermons, from my experience in Pente/Fundy churches I think a lot of that has to do with people looking to church for their entertainment, as there were so many outside activities you weren't supposed to do as a Christian. I often found myself wishing they would cut the bad comedy and just say what they needed to say, and they could be done in 1/10 the time. The worst was when I made the mistake of going to a New Year's Eve meeting, and the guest speaker went on and on until 12:30 am, missing the countdown. I should have just gone to a bar.

Now I'm at a liturgical Lutheran church. Lutherans have their own problems, but overlong sermons isn't one of them. :-)

[brad]

I'm totally on board with this idea that the traditional American church is producing spectators and that it needs a real overhaul, but let's not just be naysayers. What can the church do instead that would still hold the Bible in high regard. Small groups rarely have a gifted teacher. I can imagine lots of shallow small groups not edifying the church any better. Should we just tell everyone to fend for themselves and cancel preaching? How can the church leaders do their job of shepherding the flock without turning church into a feel good, country club-style, discussion session?

[brad]

I'm totally on board with this idea that the traditional American church is producing spectators and that it needs a real overhaul, but let's not just be naysayers. What can the church do instead that would still hold the Bible in high regard. Small groups rarely have a gifted teacher. I can imagine lots of shallow small groups not edifying the church any better. Should we just tell everyone to fend for themselves and cancel preaching? How can the church leaders do their job of shepherding the flock without turning church into a feel good, country club-style, discussion session?

[Sarah]

I find Joel's last comment an indication of the power of "being" the church, rather than "doing" church. When we just are who we are in Christ, God uses that. Living stones, ya know? It's a little different from the production and stage management approach. I would argue it's profoundly more powerful and substantive.

[Joe B]

7 years a preacher. Saw many awesome things happen in response to my sermons. So what?

Yes "things happen" after sermons. But holy cow, what do you expect? People have driven across town to come and subject themselves to what I might say. They give their ears and their souls to me. They practice the art of saying "amen", and most particularly to the very things that prick them most smartly.

They agree in advance to laugh at my joke even if it is not funny. A few are there to criticize, but most are there to root for the home team, and Casey is at bat. I do not want to stand there. Not in those shoes and not behind that garish pulpit.

It's like people coming to watch someone bungee jump. They would not leap to their death, so they gather to watch another man pretend like he's leaping to his death (but he's not.) And if he yells "Geronimo" on the way down they call him "bold." An odd ritual indeed.

I like to study and teach, but I LOVE it when I am challenged at every point by my "students." I love to preach Jesus to many or few, on a college campus or in a bar. No free passes there. And darned few sermons, eh?

Since the time of John the baptist the Kingdom of God is advancing. Violent men seize it by force.

Does that sound like your world? Hmmmmmm...

[Liam]

Just a quick thought on Paul. He preached a lot, but he wasn't preaching to the saved in church buildings. He was out there. Like when he preached in front of the monument to the unknown God. The weird thing is I look down on Street Preachers while admiring the man in the pulpit.

[Jim]

But Paul did preach to house churches... someone above mentioned Eutychus. That story from Acts 20 occurred in a church setting. On that occasion Paul preached all night, to believers. I think it's clear from the NT that Paul preached in all kinds of places, indoors and out in 'official' church gatherings and otherwise. In season and out of season.

Pulpit preaching is an effective way of reaching many people, though it's quite ineffective for others. There are usually plenty of both kinds in any given congregation. I'd like to be snarky and say that the only reason that pulpit preaching is still around after 2000+ years is inertia and laziness, but I just don't think that's the case.

I'm all for the stem to stern reevaluation of our methods (and hearts while we're at it) proposed by T above. I think pulpit preaching will survive it and be improved by it.

[Brant: I re-read the Eutychus story, after hearing this used as an example of modern-type "preaching" several times. I don't think it fits. He was a visiting missionary, and there were people eating in a house, and he talked until midnight, and they ate again after Eutychus fell out the window. This sounds a lot like (except for the guy falling out the window part) a typical evening at our house, or anyone else's, when someone visits, not a lecture-style sermon.

*If* that's the best example we have of, "See, look! Paul preached like we did, too!", and we extrapolate a whole way of "doing church" from it, it seems very, very shaky. Not that you're doing that, but many do, I'm afraid.]

[Steve_11]

Brant - this is another point on which we have different views. Are we even from the same planet?

I thoroughly enjoy listening to preaching. Especially radio but also live, TV, webcast....and any other I left off. R.C. Sproul, Ed. Young (Jr. and Sr.), David Jeremiah, the late D. James Kennedy and many others on the radio inspire me as I drive in my car or work in the garage or listen at work. It annoys the heck out of my family when I put on some guy talking instead of music.

I also would like to discuss with others the things that these preachers bring to mind, which is more of what you and other seem to prefer. Even though part of a cell church, sadly that part just doesn't happen much in my life.

[thadd]

were you in the strawberry fields in urbana, il? if so, i love that place! (umm...did i miss the point?)

[Reply from Brant: YES. That's it. I can still smell that place in my dreams. The fresh bread. The granola. The coffee...]