And You Thought *I* Was Losing It

Check out this intemperate nutball:  (HT:  Bish)

"The local congregation is the primary place for dealing with the particulars and people we live with. As created and sustained by the Holy Spirit, it is insistently local and personal. Unfortunately, the more popular American church strategies in respect to congregation are not friendly to the local and personal. The American way with its penchant for catchy slogans and stirring visions denigrates the local, and its programmatic ways of dealing with people erode the person, replacing intimacies with functions...

"The great American innovation in congregation is to turn it into a consumer enterprise…If we have a nation of consumers, obviously the quickest and most effective way to get them into our congregations is to identify what they want and offer it to them…We are the world's champion consumers, so why shouldn't we have state-of-the-art consumer churches?

Give the conditions prevailing in our culture, this is the best and most effective way that has ever been devised for gathering large and prosperous congregations. Americans lead the world in showing how to do it. There is only one thing wrong: this is not the way in which God brings us into conformity with the life of Jesus and sets us on the way of Jesus' salvation…The cultivation of consumer spirituality is the antithesis of a sacrificial, "deny yourself" congregation. A consumer church is an antichrist church."

That's the apparently cranky Eugene Peterson, from The Jesus Way:  A Conversation on the Ways That Jesus is the Way,  pp. 5-6.

Sheesh.

Comments

[Mike Bishop]

Nutball! That's an understatement!

This Euguene Peterson guy obviously never went to seminary!

[T]

Has that guy even read the Bible?

;)

[Kerry]

Yup, that Eugene guy is certifiable! Here's a direct quote of his introduction to Amos in the Message Bible:

"More people are exploited and abused in the cause of religion than in any other way. Sex, money, and power all take a back seat to religion as a source of evil. Religion is the most dangerous energy source known to humankind. The moment a person (or government or religion or organization) is convinced that God is either ordering or sanctioning a cause or project, anything goes. The history, worldwide, of religion-fueled hate, killing, and oppression is staggering. The biblical prophets are in the front line of those doing something about it.

The biblical prophets continue to be the most powerful and effective voices ever heard on this earth for keeping religion honest, humble, and compassionate. Prophets sniff out injustice, especially injustice that is dressed up in religious garb. They sniff it out a mile away. Prophets see through hypocrisy, especially hypocrisy that assumes a religious pose. Prophets are not impressed by position or power or authority. They aren't taken in by numbers, size, or appearances of success.

They pay little attention to what men and women say about God or do for God. They listen to God and rigorously test all human language and action against what they hear. Among these prophets, Amos towers as defender of the downtrodden poor and accuser of the powerful rich who use God's name to legitimize their sin.

None of us can be trusted in this business. If we pray and worship God and associate with others who likewise pray and worship God, we absolutely must keep company with these biblical prophets. We are required to submit all our words and acts to their passionate scrutiny to prevent the perversion of our religion into something self-serving. A spiritual life that doesn't give a large place to the prophet-articulated justice will end up making us worse instead of better, separating us from God's ways instead of drawing us into them."

Brant, and I thought you had issues!

[Cpt. Crayon]

"The history, worldwide, of religion-fueled hate, killing, and oppression is staggering."

Does he have any references for this? This is an easy "fact" to repeat, but does it hold any water?

[Cpt. Crayon]

Okay, sorry to get off on that tangent.

"and its programmatic ways of dealing with people erode the person, replacing intimacies with functions..."

Everybody's got to have their own "ministry" with a name, slogan, and website. Not that names, slogans, or websites are bad things necessarily, but they shouldn't take the place of real interaction between folks.

[Brant]

Cap'n Crayon -- I agree, but I'm not sure that's what he's really getting at. I *think*, given the context, he's talking about programmatic plans and approaches taken by American churches.

It understandably might cause confusion. It's such a part of our church culture that we even have a hard time separating the idea of "church" from a Christian-program-providing institution that fits into the American lifestyle.

[John M.]

Aww, but I want to be entertained! If I get convinced to follow Jesus by entertainment, that means I can just switch whenever somebody more entertaining comes along! Like Satan!

[frank]

If it reaches just one....right?

[Becky]

Great quote. Mr. Peterson was a smart man.

I'm struck by the irony in the fact that Satan loves to use many of the very things created for God's glory (such as the church, and even Christians themselves) to accomplish his destructive agenda. Sometimes it seems we are his favorite and most effective tools.

[Kerry]

John M - I'm trying personally to understand where in our culture we became so addicted to entertainment, and like the age old saying;"where the world goes the church follows" (anyway.. something like that).
My conclusion to date is that entertainment is like junk food to fill time instead of doing the hard important stuff - great commission stuff, and uhm... blogging of course!

[Brant]

Great question, and not directed to me, but I'll butt in with a side-note:

Entertainment culture is one thing, but churches "giving people what they want" may not look like entertainment.

Given our convictions about religion, we tend to want to FEEL religious about ourselves, but at little cost. So it may not look like entertainment. We want to feel like we're doing our duty, plugging in to the right programs, attending something regularly, involving ourselves in small group or hard-core Bible study.

All these things sound good, and don't look like cotton-candy sermons or amusements, which are easy to rail against. But they can simply be distractions, and time-and-money consumers.

Many just can't imagine how these things could possibly be anything but wonderful. We *want* to be able to check things off, so churches can even offer hard-core Bible study, even, to "give us what we want."

We can choose cars, clothes, images, sports, and yes, even Bible-y church programs, to feel good about ourselves.

[Brian]

The local congregation is the primary place for dealing with the particulars and people we live with.... Unfortunately, the more popular American church strategies in respect to congregation are not friendly to the local and personal..... and its programmatic ways of dealing with people erode the person, replacing intimacies with functions...

I know the local congregation is ideally more than just Sunday Morning - but realistically this is the main event on which many churches focus their efforts. And the very structure of this event hinders the "local and personal" that Peterson is talking about.

You've got people who come in, sit down, face the front and then here some guy lecture for 30-60 minutes. Then you have a praise team or worship leader up front for another 30 minutes or so. If you're lucky, you have a good SS class where you can connect and fellowship but I don't know how common that is. In all this, we barely have to deal with each other at all.

Is it any wonder that evangelicals are exploring other ways of "doing" church? Whether it be meeting in someone's house or down at the local pub/coffee shop.

I think this desire to be more connected is what's driving people to explore the more liturgical models as well. Nothing to back that up, really. Just my impression.

[Amy]

"We can choose cars, clothes, images, sports, and yes, even Bible-y church programs, to feel good about ourselves."

That's what it really comes down to, isn't it? The motivation behind why you're doing something?

I mean, you can do a really "good" thing, for all the wrong reasons. Is it still a good thing?

[frank]

Brian - I agree with you. Our culture is very individualistic and unfortunately so is the way we do church. If we run into any problems at all, we take it personal and find another church to attend that meets our needs. We rarely find true biblical community in these "church" settings and our spirits long for it, but do we really desire the difficulty that comes along with dealing with people?

[MamasBoy]

Amy: "I mean, you can do a really "good" thing, for all the wrong reasons. Is it still a good thing?"

MB: Paul seemed to think it was, at least in the case of preaching the gospel.
"15: Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will.
16: The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel;
17: the former proclaim Christ out of partisanship, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment.
18: What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in that I rejoice.
Philippians 1:15-18

Personally, I've always been uncomfortable with this passage of Scripture. I mean, what if some total hypocrite is preaching the gospel? Is that really something to rejoice in? I think it has to do with the mercy of the Holy Spirit to use even folks like me.

MamasBoy

[MamasBoy]

Brian: "I think this desire to be more connected is what's driving people to explore the more liturgical models as well. Nothing to back that up, really. Just my impression."

MB: While connection with other people may drive some, I think most people seek a deeper experience of transcendent: the connection with God. Liturgical services are intentionally focused primarily on God and giving him the worship He is due, and not on oneself or one's fellow man. It's a period of time when we can say that no person or group of persons is the primary focus, not even the pastor.

Elisabeth Elliot's brother Thomas Howard expresses his own discovery of liturgical experience in the book "Evangelical is Not Enough". He has been interviewed by Christianity Today and other media on the topic as well.
http://www.amazon.com/Evangelical-Not-Enough-Worship-Sacrament/dp/0898702216

MB

[Brian]

Frank - We rarely find true biblical community in these "church" settings and our spirits long for it, but do we really desire the difficulty that comes along with dealing with people?

Well, yes and no :). It's kinda like a marriage, isn't it? Living and dealing with the same person over years and years is hard work. And while we don't wish for the difficult times, they do make us stronger and help us appreciate the better times.

To some degree, I think a church community should be like that. It won't always be easy but the end result can be a beautiful thing. And actually not just the end result but the whole process as well.

[Brian]

MB,

Thanks for that. We always hear that the grounds for our oneness, our unity, is in Christ alone. Seems like the liturgical church is better at expressing that we evangelicals are. I really wish that we could get away from the pastor/sermon as the center point of our worship service.

I'm reminded of something A.W. Tozer said in The Pursuit of God :

"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other? they are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow. So one hundred worshippers met together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become 'unity' conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship."

[Kerry]

I think the era of the religious event being the center focal point of Christianity is coming to an end. It is not effective evangelism, it is not capable of providing any discipleship whatsoever. When I was a worship leader my whole week was spent working on the event, while I neglected the relationships and missed the opportunities to truly be salt and light. Now I'm having more opportunities to BE a Christian than before, and best of all I'm not performing for anyone any more! Now I have more than a song to give. (BTW-just a 6-string player never stepped up to the accordion)
I don't know what the body of Christ will look like in the next few years. I do know it will be different for many. I've often pondered the description of the waiting and ready bride in Revelation, and contrasted that to what we perceive as Christianity now. Maybe this season of challenging status quo and searching for deeper community is the beginning of the end.

[Steve_11]

Did Rosie O'Donnell write that preface to Amos in The Message?

I'd better check with my pastor (We happen to have one, in our church building), to see when the oppression and murder are scheduled. I haven't seen that in our weekly newsletter (We have one of those too.) BTW, you should see our church's new logo - it's tight!

[Amy]

MB...I reckon it is still a good thing, but you are not necessarily a "good" person, huh?
That Scripture has always challenged me as well.